Copy/paste from a recent discussion. 
Posted: 20 November 2009 11:50 AM   [ Ignore ]
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  233
Joined  2007-02-23

c888 ÆLFRED Boeth. XXXII. §3 Æᵹðer ᵹe hwite ᵹimmas ᵹe reade.

I see some little boxes with some markings inside them.

How/why does ᵹ ᵹ ᵹ appear occasionally but not frequently?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 November 2009 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2783
Joined  2007-01-31

Does whether or not they display properly depend on what webpage you’re looking at or what computer you’re using? Or is it flaky and inconsistent even viewing the same page on the same computer?

Are you sure that the character that does display correctly on your computer is really the one above (an insular g, ᵹ) and not a yogh (ȝ), ezh (ʒ) or something like that?

I found to my surprise that my computer displays the insular g in Unicode, even though it doesn’t seem to appear in my Unicode character insertion palette.  I copied-and-pasted from another site to insert it in the text you quoted.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 November 2009 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1156
Joined  2007-02-14

FWIW, I can see the yogh and the ezh, but not the insular g.  Lemme see can I copy and paste that whole thing:

(an insular g, ᵹ) and not a yogh (ȝ), ezh (ʒ)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  233
Joined  2007-02-23

Today I am seeing what Faldage is apparently seeing. My OP has not changed, still looks the same as yesterday. I on rare occasions see the flaky, inconsistent display at washingtonpost.com. I will return here weekly to see if it is consistent or not. BTW, it is of no current consequence. In a previous incarnation I did bugfix checkout and this sort of thing still intrigues me.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2783
Joined  2007-01-31

FWIW, I see the insular g and the other letters displayed properly in all of the posts in this thread.

I have discovered that, on my computer, some of the common fonts are able to display the insular g, but others lack it and just show the box. YMMV.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4610
Joined  2007-01-03

Can you name a font or two where it doesn’t work? I can’t seem to find one that doesn’t display it.

At least for the lower case insular g. I can find any that display the uppercase insular g.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4610
Joined  2007-01-03

I’ve prepared this document because I don’t know how many times I’ve been asked in class how to produce the characters. I’m going to add runes to it, but before I go too far, I’d like comments. Anything I should add, delete, or reformat?

I’m also curious what the text in the tables looks like to someone who does not have the Junicode font installed.

And if anyone can give the equivalent info for Mac, it would be much appreciated.

I don’t want to make it particular to this website, but I can add a page on the particulars of using the characters in this forum if people would find that helpful.

[ Edited: 21 November 2009 03:02 PM by Dave Wilton ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2783
Joined  2007-01-31

None of these will display the insular g on my Mac: Arial Narrow (but Arial shows it), Baskerville, Book Antiqua, Century Schoolbook, Courier (but Courier New shows it), Goudy Old Style, Helvetica, Lucida Grande, Palatino, Times or Times New Roman. (This is not an exhaustive list--I didn’t try any of the exotic display fonts, just some of the more common body fonts.)

Now, if I’m in MSWord and I insert an insular g when I’m using a font that doesn’t support it, or if I change a the font of a block of text that includes an insular g to one that doesn’t support it, I’ve found that Word automatically puts/keeps that character in a font that does support it (Microsoft Sans Serif).  If this is how you’ve been trying to see which fonts support it, that might account for your failure to find any.  Or the font character sets may be implemented differently on your computer than on mine.

[ Edited: 21 November 2009 03:32 PM by Dr. Techie ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2783
Joined  2007-01-31

I don’t have Junicode installed on my Mac.  In your document, I can’t see (in the “Letter” column) the yogh (upper case or lower case), the wynn (uc or lc) the insular g (uc or lc), the tironian et, the y-macron (uc or lc) or the ash-macron (uc or lc).  However, I know that all of these characters except the upper-case insular g are supported on my Mac: I can see and insert them using the Character Palette.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4610
Joined  2007-01-03

Interesting. When I change the font to one of those that doesn’t support the characters (like Arial Narrow), Windows/MS Word retains the Junicode font setting for the unsupported characters but changes the rest.

This is probably the right behavior for legibility and comprehension, but it makes compatibility testing difficult. There’s probably a setting buried somewhere in Windows that will turn off this automatic font selection. (But I’m not going to mess with it; my experience with settings like that is that they persist in the system long after you want them to. A while back I switched my system over to British English to edit a doc using the British spelling and grammar libraries and it took me months to get the system back to the US settings--each time I opened an application it defaulted to the British setting and took the entire operating system with it. I had to manually change each and every program that used the country options.)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 05:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2783
Joined  2007-01-31

I only discovered that Word did this because I noticed that the insular g tended to look exactly the same even in (supposedly) different fonts.

If you have a more bare-bones text editor (but one that still supports different fonts) you can more easily determine if the font contains a given character. On the Mac, for example, I used TextEdit (provided with the system) to do this.  I think NotePad is roughly equivalent in Windows, but I don’t know how easy or difficult it is to change fonts in it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4610
Joined  2007-01-03

The only one that doesn’t show up on Safari on my iPhone is the uppercase insular g. All the other characters are rendered, including the tironian et.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2009 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2783
Joined  2007-01-31

That matches my experience with my Macbook Pro running OS X.5.8.

IIRC, the uppercase insular G was only recently added to Unicode (specifically in Unicode Standard 5.2, which (again IIRC) was released less than two months ago), so it’s not surprising that it isn’t implemented on our computers yet.

Correction: it was added in 5.1, released in March last year.  Still not too surprising.  For Macs, I think they only update the Unicode implementation as part of named OS upgrades. Maybe if I had Snow Leopard I’d see the capital ᵹ.

[ Edited: 21 November 2009 10:31 PM by Dr. Techie ]
Profile