2 of 3
2
cad
Posted: 22 May 2007 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4611
Joined  2007-01-03

Socially inferior (as in a maid or servant) or young and naive.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 May 2007 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1365
Joined  2007-01-29

I’ve never thought of the cad’s prey as being his social inferior.  I’d be interested to know where you get that from.

(Thinks of “Have Some Madiera, M’dear)

Think about it.  From a female point of view.

edited in emboldening

[ Edited: 22 May 2007 09:55 AM by ElizaD ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 May 2007 12:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  311
Joined  2007-02-17
ElizaD - 22 May 2007 09:33 AM

Think about it.  From a female point of view.

So you’re thinking that part of the definition of a cad is that he believes ALL women are inferior?  If all men think that all women are inferior, then it’s a given and doesn’t need to be in the definition.
Or, there’s “motive” involved rather than pure behavior. murder:manslaughter :: cad:____ ?
Or, there are (should be) other words for a man who acts cad-like to his equals and superiors.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 May 2007 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1365
Joined  2007-01-29

Really, I suppose I shouldn’t be bothering with replying to that post, since the emboldening in my post was intended to illustrate bayard’s male point of view.  So I won’t.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 May 2007 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1954
Joined  2007-02-19

Interesting discussion.  For some reason, i have long had at the back of my mind the notion that “cad” was originally the term used long ago by young men at Oxford University, to refer to the townspeople of Oxford who were not of the University, and were therefore considered ipso facto socially inferior.  “Caddish behaviour” was the low sort of behaviour which one might expect from such persons, but which would not be acceptable coming from a ‘Varsity man. One who reneged on a debt, or seduced his friend’s sister, would be acting like a cad. If he seduced the barmaid, on the other hand, he would merely be a scamp, or a tearaway—his behaviour deplorable, but not despicable.

Does anyone have any corroboration of this? I looked at “Etymology on-line”, which appears to confirm my suspicion to some degree. Nowadays the word appears to be used rather loosely, to describe almost any sort of bad behaviour, especially by men toward women.

When I was a schoolboy, my Anglo schoolmates’ parents might have used the word “rotter” as being more or less synonymous with “cad”, though “rotter” carried no implication of social status --- only of low moral standards.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 May 2007 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3421
Joined  2007-01-29

For some reason, i have long had at the back of my mind the notion that “cad” was originally the term used long ago by young men at Oxford University, to refer to the townspeople of Oxford who were not of the University

Quite true!  OED:

4. = Sc. CADDIE, sense 2: ‘Cads, low fellows, who hang about the college to provide the Etonians with anything necessary to assist their sports’. Hone (note to quot.). So at Oxford, applied by collegians to town-lads of the same description, and contemptuously to townsmen generally.
1831 HONE Year Bk. 670 Preceded by one or two bands of music in two boats, rowed by ‘cads’. 1838 Leg. late Illumination in Oxf. Her. 22 Feb., A gown-and-town row had got up, to testify their loyalty, By milling of all rads and cads, and other foes to royalty. 1844 PEGGE Anecd. Eng. Lang. (ed. 3) 34 note, The Oxford Townsman.. in 1835 had been promoted to the title of cad. 1850 CLOUGH Dipsychus II. ii. 152 If I should chance to run over a cad, I can pay for the damage if ever so bad.

I did not know that, so thanks for the information.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 May 2007 06:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  155
Joined  2007-01-28

In this country we generally don’t form our linguistic concepts around class and social status. In the US those two basically equal money. Eliza’s description was unfamiliar at first, but Lionello’s explanation rings true to my uncultivated ears: a cad is a gentleman who is not acting like a gentleman. Over here, I think the emphasis is on an excess of charm coupled with duplicitous intent.

Eliza’s emphasis, again, points to a differential in essential power. Women and men have different agendas and use different means to achieve those, typically. Anna Nicole Smith at least waited till her husband died, and never claimed anything but love for and commitment to him. Sexual politics don’t make for parallel linguistic constructions.

[ Edited: 22 May 2007 06:40 PM by foolscap ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 May 2007 11:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  590
Joined  2007-02-22
ElizaD - 22 May 2007 09:33 AM

Think about it.  From a female point of view.

I’ve tried and am as baffled as Myridon.  Yes I’d agree that a cad would have to be a sexist, but I can’t see where social status comes in (apart from the general difference of social status of women vis a vis men in certain (some would say all) societies).

I’m more inclined to agree with Lionello that a cad is someone who seduces his friend’s sister (though not necessarily about the barmaid).

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 May 2007 03:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1156
Joined  2007-02-14

It seems to me that the defining characteristic of “cad” is the notion of leading his prey on to expect some sort of follow through, a committment.  He then abandons his prey once he’s gotten what he wants.  The female version of this would be a flirt.  The coincidental differences between cad and flirt would relate to the traditional power differences between males and females and the generalization that what the woman was after didn’t necessarily involve sex.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 May 2007 04:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1954
Joined  2007-02-19

When one thinks of cads and caddish behaviour, as reflected in movies, one thinks of George Sanders

Did you have in mind that beastly, blackmailing cousin Jack in “Rebecca”, aldi, or perhaps Bel Ami? Sanders had the most beguiling, seductive villain’s voice I’ve ever heard. If I’d been a woman, he’d have been the cad I’d have loved to be seduced by. Whoever chose his voice for Shere Khan in “The Jungle Book” deserves a Nobel Prize for perfect casting.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 May 2007 11:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Rank
Total Posts:  14
Joined  2007-02-19
bayard - 22 May 2007 11:48 PM

ElizaD - 22 May 2007 09:33 AM
Think about it.  From a female point of view.

I’ve tried and am as baffled as Myridon.  Yes I’d agree that a cad would have to be a sexist, but I can’t see where social status comes in (apart from the general difference of social status of women vis a vis men in certain (some would say all) societies).

I’m more inclined to agree with Lionello that a cad is someone who seduces his friend’s sister (though not necessarily about the barmaid).

I think Eliza was commenting on the initial use of the word prey, more than anything else.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 May 2007 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2301
Joined  2007-01-30
lionello - 23 May 2007 04:57 AM

When one thinks of cads and caddish behaviour, as reflected in movies, one thinks of George Sanders

Did you have in mind that beastly, blackmailing cousin Jack in “Rebecca”, aldi, or perhaps Bel Ami? Sanders had the most beguiling, seductive villain’s voice I’ve ever heard. If I’d been a woman, he’d have been the cad I’d have loved to be seduced by. Whoever chose his voice for Shere Khan in “The Jungle Book” deserves a Nobel Prize for perfect casting.

Yes, those roles, and Death of a Scoundrel comes to mind, as well as his role in All About Eve, where one always feels his theatre critic is something of a cad. What a voice he had!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 May 2007 06:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4611
Joined  2007-01-03

I’ve created an entry for cad on the Big List.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 May 2007 07:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1207
Joined  2007-04-28

Cad and bounder often go together. There is Bounderby in Hard Times. I’m guessing “bound-er” in our sense of social climb-er and cad.  I don’t subscribe to OED so over to you.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 May 2007 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1954
Joined  2007-02-19

"Bounder” is great, venomousbede. I wonder how far back it goes. Hopefully, someone with access to OED will tell us. I suspect it’s not as old as “cad”.  About a hundred years ago, there was a song mentioned in one of Saki’s short stories (The Open Window): “Bertie, Why Do You Bound?”. I don’t know if such a song actually existed, or if Saki made it up for the occasion; but I would guess that the phrase was a sideswipe at King Edward VII. Edward’s nickname among his family and intimates was “Bertie”, and his very public “private” life was so reprehensible that he was considered a cad even by many of his contemporaries --- Saki, no doubt, among them. Saki’s morality was very English upper-class; his heroes, though nasty at times, and often mischievous to the point of wickedness, never behave caddishly.

If my reading of “bounder” is correct, venomousbede, it would rule out any association with “social climber”. Edward had nowhere to climb to, socially; he was already there ;-)

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 3
2