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Jah People
Posted: 08 July 2007 02:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Oecolampadius - 08 July 2007 09:38 AM

Also, FWIW, Catholics don’t require that you drink wine at all.

Oh, that’s right, it’s not wine, it’s blood (which, of course, violates both halal AND kosher laws). (^_^)

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Posted: 08 July 2007 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Both God and Allah are well-established English words with well-established differences in connotation, regardless of the theological identity of referent.

I would agree with this. Theologically, they are the same entities and the denotation of the two words in English is the same, but the connotations are quite different. Example: how many times have you run across a phrasing like “it doesn’t matter whether you worship God, Allah, Buddha, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster...”?

(Yes, I know “worshipping” Buddha is terribly inaccurate as well, but this phrasing is rather common.)

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Posted: 08 July 2007 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Wow, this is a good little discussion!

So, Happydog (and everyone else)—(I’m almost laughing as I ask this because it seems so off topic, which is funny)—are you of the opinion then that in the case of the songs I mentioned, that they are probably using the phrase Jah People, as it stands, intentionally? Meaning, without the possessive?

EDIT: (Removed off-topic comment) Agreed, Lionello.

[ Edited: 09 July 2007 06:25 AM by JDayne ]
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Posted: 08 July 2007 10:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Yes, it is off topic. Very much so. Theological discussions are not funny—they are dangerous. However they may begin, they end all too often in flames. Can’t we leave people’s religious beliefs alone, and for God’s/Yah’s/The Flying Spaghetti Monster’s sake get back to word origins?

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Posted: 09 July 2007 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Bringing up London Underground driver and singer Jah Wobble is just going to muddy the waters here isn’t it.

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Posted: 09 July 2007 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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I don’t see this as off-topic. We’re not debating the correctness of any particular theology, only the use of various words for God.

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Posted: 09 July 2007 06:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Dave, Lionello was responding to a comment that I had made, since removed, that was off topic (in retrospect, highly so). No sweat.

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Posted: 09 July 2007 06:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Theologically, they are the same entities and the denotation of the two words in English is the same, but the connotations are quite different.

True, which is why I routinely campaign for rendering the Arabic term as “God” in English; using the foreign word is theologically meaningless and in practice leads to misunderstanding and potential hostility.

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Posted: 12 July 2007 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Is “jah people” from Jamaican English? Then it would be pidgin into creole with non-standard and originally simplified grammar maybe?

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Posted: 12 July 2007 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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venomousbede - 12 July 2007 03:10 PM

Is “jah people” from Jamaican English? Then it would be pidgin into creole with non-standard and originally simplified grammar maybe?

OK, so I downloaded and listened to the Marley song, “Exodus.” It’s really wonderful.  But in a certain way, if I may engage in a certain conceit, it is only understandable from within or at least in reference to, the Hebrew story of Exodus and Babylonian exile.  And, of course Haile Selassie.

The pronunciation of “Jah” may be the major Jamaican contribution.  The real pronunciation of this consonantal construction (if there ever was one) is lost in time.  Using IPA, the pronunciation of Jah in the song is “[dʒa:]"

Let me say again, it is a shortening of the tetragrammaton JHWH rendered into a Jamaican phonetics perhaps.  The first consonant is like the last phoneme in the word “edge” I think.

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Posted: 13 July 2007 05:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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The real pronunciation of this consonantal construction (if there ever was one) is lost in time.

Etymology or history, if you like, doesn’t determine pronunciation any more than it determines definition. The “real” pronunciation of Jah is exactly the way the Rastas pronounce it.

But in a certain way, if I may engage in a certain conceit, it is only understandable from within or at least in reference to, the Hebrew story of Exodus and Babylonian exile.

A numerologist will tell you that you can only understand the song if you do a numerological analysis. A linguist will tell you that it needs to be understood linguistically. A historian will tell you the real understanding is historical. You think you have the “only” understanding of the song? Get in line.

All art speaks for itself. The meaning isn’t in the song, it’s in you. The song has no meaning until you bring one. Yours is no better or worse than anyone else’s. Even if the artist himself tells you what the work means to him, it is just another opinion. People get from art what they get and there is no right or wrong or true or false or better or worse. Of course, this is all simply my opinion.

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Posted: 13 July 2007 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Happydog,

Thanks for pointing out my sloppy use of the word “real.” Point well-taken.  I should have said “original pronunciation if there was one”.

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