Canadian suburbs
Posted: 19 November 2013 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2852
Joined  2007-01-31

I’m not sure if this is a question about word usage or about politics; since Dave is also in the best position to answer it he can always whack it if he feels it’s inappropriate.

In news coverage of the ongoing Rob Ford trainwreck, I keep hearing that he was voted into office (as mayor of Toronto) by, and remains popular with, residents of the outer suburbs.  This sounds strange to me since, in all US cities that I know of, the suburbs are separate municipalities with their own mayors, and residents of suburbs do not get to vote in elections for the mayor of the principal city.  Residents of Skokie, Evanston, and Oak Park, for instance, don’t get to vote in Chicago’s mayoral elections.

So is this a difference in the meaning of “suburb” — i.e., in Canada it means the outlying precincts or neighborhoods of the city, but still within city limits — or is it a difference in electoral laws that gives residents of nearby municipalities the right to vote for mayor of Toronto?  If the latter, how common is that?  Do other Canadian cities have similar arrangements?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 November 2013 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3133
Joined  2007-02-26

I know you’re asking about Canada but…
In Australia, a suburb is a small area within an a city, usually between 1 and 10 sq km in size. It doesn’t have to be a residential area and it is not an administrative area. e.g. Fortitude Valley is 1.4 sq km and is mainly a commercial area adjacent to the central business district, Mt Gravatt is a mainly residential area 2.7 sq km in size: both of these are suburbs within the Brisbane City Council area.

edit: added last six words

[ Edited: 19 November 2013 03:33 PM by OP Tipping ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 November 2013 06:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1286
Joined  2007-03-21
OP Tipping - 19 November 2013 03:30 PM

I know you’re asking about Canada but…
In Australia, a suburb is a small area within an a city, usually between 1 and 10 sq km in size. It doesn’t have to be a residential area and it is not an administrative area. e.g. Fortitude Valley is 1.4 sq km and is mainly a commercial area adjacent to the central business district, Mt Gravatt is a mainly residential area 2.7 sq km in size: both of these are suburbs within the Brisbane City Council area.


edit: added last six words

Makes sense. To use Dr. Tech’s example, the areas (neighborhoods) within the now city limits of Chicago (Roseland, Hyde Park, Austin, Lakeview and etc) all used to be suburbs before being annexed. Not a big leap to use the word “suburbs” where we in Chicago and many other cities would use neighborhoods. But awaiting Dave…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 November 2013 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4787
Joined  2007-01-03

In 1997 Toronto and a number (five?) of suburban municipalities were amalgamated into one huge municipal government. I believe this situation is sui generis for Toronto and doesn’t obtain for other Canadian cities or have implications for how Canadians in general define suburb.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2013 06:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3133
Joined  2007-02-26

So what term is used in the USA for these little areas within a city that Australians call suburbs?

Districts?

They don’t have any administrative significance but they are handy for real estate agents and for giving people a rough idea of what part of town you live in.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2013 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  710
Joined  2007-02-07

"District’ is the usual designation, if needed. Most people from around here would just say (for example) “Boyle Heights” with the understanding that it’s really part of the city of Los Angeles, but you might hear it referred to as “the Boyle Heights district” in a more formal setting.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2013 09:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2852
Joined  2007-01-31

It probably varies from city to city, and also depending on the scale of the zone under question. New York City has its boroughs, for instance (Manhattan, Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn & Staten Island), which undoubtedly have smaller named subdivisions (subdivision itself is another such term).  In Chicago they have named neighborhoods: Lincoln Park, Hyde Park, Bridgeport, Kenwood, etc.; there are probably hundreds).  I never heard “district” in Chicago except in technical/legal uses, e.g., school districts.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2013 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4787
Joined  2007-01-03

The boroughs of New York City do have administrative significance. They elect their own borough president and council.

“Neighborhood” is probably the most common term for an area that has communal but not administrative significance. “Subdivision” is mostly used in planning or development circles. “Precinct” is often used for local electoral districts or in urban areas for various administrative divisions, such as police.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2013 04:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3133
Joined  2007-02-26

The need for such terms probably depends on the local administrative configuration. In Los Angeles, the actual cities are so small and numerous that there may be no need for any informal area names. Tell someone you live in Lynwood or Huntington Park, say, and they will have a pretty good idea where you live.

Interesting sentence, that last one: started with the imperative mood, then there’s an “and” followed by a statement in the indicative mood, but semantically the same as a conditional statement. If the subject of the second part had been “you” then we could express both parts using the imperative. If you drink that (then) you will die = Drink that and you will die = Drink that and die. What a world.

Peter Griffin: “But I digest.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2013 09:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  336
Joined  2007-02-13

The boroughs of New York excluding Manhattan are also called the outer boroughs, as in “residents of the outer boroughs complained the streets were not plowed”.  Each borough is also overlaid by a county: New York (Manhattan), Bronx, Kings (Brooklyn), Queens, and Richmond (Staten Island) but there is no separate county government for them. 

One of those Toronto suburbs, East York, was the only borough in Canada until the merger on January 1, 1998 (although when I was there in August 1998 they still had a sign up proclaiming their uniqueness).

Sometimes a part of a city in the U.S. is just called a “section” as in the Ironbound and Vailsburg sections of Newark, NJ or Park Slope in Brooklyn.

[edit:  changed “overlayed” to “overlaid"]

[ Edited: 22 November 2013 11:17 AM by jtab4994 ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 November 2013 04:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3133
Joined  2007-02-26

From what I can see on the electrical Internet seems to be a lot of variety in this regard. Chicago has a bunch of Community Areas.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 November 2013 04:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4787
Joined  2007-01-03

Interesting sentence, that last one: started with the imperative mood, then there’s an “and” followed by a statement in the indicative mood, but semantically the same as a conditional statement. If the subject of the second part had been “you” then we could express both parts using the imperative. If you drink that (then) you will die = Drink that and you will die = Drink that and die. What a world.

Yes, its a use of the imperative mood for a purpose other than giving a directive, and it’s rather common. Huddleston and Pullum document it in Chap 10, 9.5, pp. 937–38. It carries the force of a command without being one.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 November 2013 07:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2031
Joined  2007-02-19

Sometimes a part of a city in the U.S. is just called a “section” as in the Ironbound and Vailsburg sections of Newark, NJ or Park Slope in Brooklyn.

Does this usage correspond to the U.S. surveyor’s section of 1 square mile, or does it have some other meaning?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 November 2013 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  336
Joined  2007-02-13

Does this usage correspond to the U.S. surveyor’s section of 1 square mile, or does it have some other meaning?

Wikipedia says Ironbound is about 4 square miles, so it does not appear to correspond to official surveyor terminology.  Neither does our municipal designation “township” which in surveyor terminology means 36 square miles.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 November 2013 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2031
Joined  2007-02-19

ta, jtab

Profile
 
 
   
 
 
‹‹ enclave      WOTY selfie ››