BL: yodel
Posted: 09 June 2018 06:55 AM   [ Ignore ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6483
Joined  2007-01-03

From the Alps to Tennessee

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 June 2018 07:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4627
Joined  2007-01-29

(The OED classifies this citation under the sense for musical yodeling, undoubtedly due to Longfellow’s use of ballad, but the context is distinctly that of an Alpine shout, not a song.)

I don’t understand.  A ballad is a song; what makes you so sure he’s talking about a shout?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 June 2018 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1227
Joined  2007-03-01

I also can’t imagine why you presume that the jodler was shouting rather than singing. Whatever your opinion of its aesthetic merits or lack of same, it is a fact that everywhere it is practised jodling is a universally understood to be a musical activity.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 June 2018 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  326
Joined  2007-02-24

Maybe think of it as a message, rather than a shout or song. That is what I thought it was originally. Of course I haven’t looked anything up, but just going by memory. It might just mean, “ I’m going to be late for summer tonight, but keep it warm!”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 June 2018 02:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  821
Joined  2013-10-14

… it is a fact that everywhere it is practised jodling is a universally understood to be a musical activity.

That’s true, but it’s also defined as a shout.

OED

Etymology: < German jodeln (18th cent. or earlier) < German regional (Swiss and Austrian) jodln , originally a variant (with excrescent d ) of German johlen , †jolen to shout or sing in an unarticulated manner (Middle High German jōlen to sing loudly and wildly) < an imitative base (compare Middle High German jō , interjection, and also yo int.) + -len , suffix forming frequentative verbs (see -le suffix 3).

b. In extended use: to shout, cry, sing, etc., in a manner reminiscent of yodelling; to make any noise characterized by rapid fluctuations in pitch or tone

*My Bold emphasis

[ Edited: 09 June 2018 02:40 PM by Logophile ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 June 2018 05:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6483
Joined  2007-01-03

A yodel certainly is musical in nature, but that doesn’t make it a song. A yodel can be an element in a song, but it’s not a song in and of itself. A song, especially a ballad, needs discernible words, and you don’t get that from yodeling. I took Longfellow’s use of ballad as a poetic extension, not a literal use.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 June 2018 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  350
Joined  2007-06-14

I agree with Dave’s last post, but…

In the time-honored WO tradition of digressions, let’s ponder this:  “ A song, especially a ballad, needs discernible words”.
Certainly true in this context, but what about instrumental jazz?  When Dexter Gordon and friends, sans vocalists, record
ballads, what should we call the ballads without words?  More broadly, what do we call songs played by instrumentalists?
I’ve always called these ballads and songs, but dictionaries seem to have overlooked the possibility of song and ballad performance without words.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 June 2018 05:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4627
Joined  2007-01-29

A yodel certainly is musical in nature, but that doesn’t make it a song. A yodel can be an element in a song, but it’s not a song in and of itself. A song, especially a ballad, needs discernible words, and you don’t get that from yodeling. I took Longfellow’s use of ballad as a poetic extension, not a literal use.

That’s all well and good, but “shout” is just as inappropriate as “song” if you’re going to get that picky.  We often use “song” for music without words, and “shout” definitely implies (to me, anyway) a totally unmusical yell.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 June 2018 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  302
Joined  2007-02-16

There’s another field that shouting doesn’t fit LH’s limited scope of the word. But, perhaps he’s not an American Blues fan?

https://www.americanbluesscene.com/language-of-the-blues-shout/

The word shout was used in a different way to describe how early blues singers sang to be heard over their bands. Blues singers in Kansas City used their shout muscles to belt over their bands, bearing down into their diaphragms the way gospel soloists do to be heard over the choir.
Blues singers like Joe Turner and Jimmy Rushing “first were heard literally screaming over the crashing rhythm sections and blaring brass sections that were characteristic of the southwestern bands,” Le Roi Jones (Amiri Baraka) explains in Blues People.

The radio beamed the new shouting blues all over black America. The style was taken up by country blues singers like Muddy Waters and T-Bone Walker, who had moved to Chicago and were leading electrified bands. Meanwhile, sophisticated shouters like B.B. King and Jimmy Witherspoon emerged to lead the charge toward R&B and rock ’n’ roll.

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_shouter

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2018 06:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4627
Joined  2007-01-29

There’s another field that shouting doesn’t fit LH’s limited scope of the word. But, perhaps he’s not an American Blues fan?

I think you’re missing my point.  I am in fact a blues fan (no reason to capitalize it) and I am familiar with the various specialized uses of “shout”; what I said, however, was:

“shout” is just as inappropriate as “song” if you’re going to get that picky.

Emphasis added.  Yes, “shout” can be interpreted in a way that makes it fit, but so can “song.” I don’t understand why Dave is being picky about one but not the other, and why he says “the context is distinctly that of an Alpine shout, not a song.”

Profile
 
 
   
 
 
‹‹ askance      pick up ››