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Koran vs Qur’an
Posted: 15 July 2008 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Thanks for the heads up, Dr Techie. I guess I’d just made a leap of faith from the name Eszett and its form in Fraktur. It appears its origin is as problematic as you suggest (link).

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Posted: 15 July 2008 08:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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I guess I’d just made a leap of faith from the name Eszett and its form in Fraktur.

Reasonable, and possibly even right, but not so clear-cut as one might think.

It’s these little surprises (aka “traps for the unwary") that make the history of language so interesting, nicht wahr?

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Posted: 16 July 2008 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Jawohl, Herr Doktor!

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Posted: 16 July 2008 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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On the news today BBC has Samir Qantar and CNN Samir Kuntar

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Posted: 19 August 2008 12:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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The umlaut-like mark in coöperate is usually called a diaeresis in English. (I don’t know if the term refers to the typographical fact of their being two dots above a letter or to the particular meaning that the mark has in English and French.)

I hadn’t thought of it as being a glottal stop. I was taught it as being a marker for not-a-diphthong. In coöperate and coïncidence, it’s both of course, as it is in the example most seen in everyday life: Citroën. According to my English teacher, its function in the rather more eccentric use in Brontë was also a not-a-diphthong mark as it prevented the terminal e having its usual effect on the pronunciation of the o. I haven’t a clue if that’s actually true or not.

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Posted: 19 August 2008 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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AHD:

glottal stop

NOUN:  A speech sound produced by a momentary complete closure of the glottis, followed by an explosive release.

Neither I nor the vast majority of Americans put a glottal stop in coöperate, coïncidence,or Citroën, and I doubt most Brits do. There’s a difference between pronouncing two distinct vowels in succession and pronouncing them with a glottal stop in between.

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Posted: 19 August 2008 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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Pavlos - 10 July 2008 01:16 AM

This however was not the case in the UK, where the Chinese city it is still referred to as Peking.

Its not you know . . .

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Posted: 19 August 2008 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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Re Peking and Beijing:

The Chinese capital did not change its name but Chinese words became spelled in English differently. In Chinese, the name stayed exactly the same and most Chinese people are not even aware that some Westerners think that there has been a name change. The old spelling has been Peking, this is how the city appeared in most earlier discourse. After the establishment of the People’s Republic of China in 1949, the government adopted the pinyin transliteration method and used this to write all of the proper names (including place names, people’s names, etc) using the Latin alphabet. Theoretically, this was when Peking became known in the West as Beijing. In reality, however, the West has been using the old spelling long after it has been replaced in China. It is only sometime in the 1980s that China started to enforce its official name on all flights, sea routes and official documents. This is why the name Peking is still echoing in our minds and people continue to use it even today. Needless to say, it is easier to pronounce than Beijing, which is an important factor too.

link

People in the UK talk about the Beijing Olympics, not the Peking Olympics.

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Posted: 20 August 2008 12:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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Dr. Techie - 19 August 2008 11:01 AM

Neither I nor the vast majority of Americans put a glottal stop in coöperate, coïncidence,or Citroën, and I doubt most Brits do. There’s a difference between pronouncing two distinct vowels in succession and pronouncing them with a glottal stop in between.

Is Citroën supposed to be pronounced Citro-en then? I always say something like Citrun

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Posted: 20 August 2008 02:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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flynn999 - 20 August 2008 12:59 AM

Dr. Techie - 19 August 2008 11:01 AM


Is Citroën supposed to be pronounced Citro-en then? I always say something like Citrun

That’s how we pronounce it in South Leftpondia.

Edit: afterthought

Unless we’re trying to pronounce it in our miserable attempts at sounding French, in which case we pronounce it Citro-æ̃.

[ Edited: 20 August 2008 02:47 AM by Faldage ]
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Posted: 20 August 2008 03:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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It was brought up before, but actually Mr. Citroen (pr. see-troon) was from a family with Dutch roots, the trema was added when they moved to France. BTW, his name means ‘lemon’…

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Posted: 20 August 2008 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Well, I’ll be damned.  What a delightful piece of information.  And according to Wikipedia, the original Dutch surname was Limoenman (limoen and citroen being synonyms).  I’m reminded of some book with a character named Death, “pronounced de-ATH,” as the character was always explaining, but I can’t remember title or author.

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Posted: 20 August 2008 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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languagehat - 20 August 2008 05:49 AM

Well, I’ll be damned.  What a delightful piece of information.  And according to Wikipedia, the original Dutch surname was Limoenman (limoen and citroen being synonyms).  I’m reminded of some book with a character named Death, “pronounced de-ATH,” as the character was always explaining, but I can’t remember title or author.

That rings a bell, but I can’t for the life of me recall the book. De’Ath is a genuine English surname, According to Burke’s, “This family, which derives its name from Aeth in Flanders, is of ancient standing in the county of Kent.”

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Posted: 20 August 2008 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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I can’t tell for sure if Faldy’s “That’s how we pronounce it in South Leftpondia"* refers to “Citro-en” or “Citrun”.  Normal parsing of the sentence in context would indicate the latter, but this goes against my experience, which is that the usual American pronunciation is “Citro-en” (Wikipedia says “See-Troh-Enn”; I don’t know if they’re saying that’s the “correct” French or English pronunciation--in my experience most Americans use a short I, not a long E, in the first syllable, but as Wiki indicates, give the word three syllables).

My main point was that it’s perfectly possible to pronounce it trisyllabically without a glottal stop between the /o/ and /e/, and to the best of my recollection I’ve never heard it said with a glottal stop.  The last two syllables are pronounced like the name “Owen”, rhyming with “Cohen”.

Not that there are lots of Citroëns on the road where I live.

*For that matter, I’m not sure it’s Faldy’s: he’s got in enclosed in a quote box but if it’s a quote, the original he’s quoting from doesn’t show up on my screen.

[ Edited: 20 August 2008 08:00 AM by Dr. Techie ]
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Posted: 20 August 2008 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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I must admit I haven’t heard anyone say the name since my hot rodding teen years, but back then it was Sit-tron among the car guys I knew.

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