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Bot boi
Posted: 10 August 2008 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Lard is Old French:

L. lrdum, lridum, usually believed to be cogn. w. Gr. * fat, - pleasant to the taste

That should be:

L. lārdum, lāridum, usually believed to be cogn. w. Gr. λᾱρ-ινός fat, λᾱρ-ός pleasant to the taste

Astal noted the omission of the Greek words, but didn’t say or do anything about the missing vowels from the Latin words.  I think inserting simple a‘s without macrons would be entirely acceptable, but “lrdum” isn’t. I can understand not wanting to make the effort to enter the Greek letters in cumbersome Unicode, but really, is it too much work to stick in a couple of a‘s?  Or to look at the quotation closely enough to notice that they’ve been lost? 

I again urge people who want to copy-and-paste etymologies from the OED to look at what they’ve pasted and compare it to what the dictionary says.

Also worth noting: acc. to the OED etymology, in OF lard meant “bacon” rather than the modern English meaning of “rendered pork fat”.

And aldi writes

beef dripping from various meals was stored in the larder

(emphasis mine)

The etymological connection of “lard” and “larder” had never struck me before.

[ Edited: 10 August 2008 10:35 PM by Dr. Techie ]
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Posted: 11 August 2008 02:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Thank you for pointing out my mistake of yet again omitting to read my OED citations properly.  I was so concerned about correcting the Greek (which had annoyed both you and languagehat previously) that I didn’t read the Latin.  I will try to do better in future. 

Meanwhile, I hope your enjoyment of my post and the effort put into it hasn’t been tempered too much by your irritation.

[ Edited: 13 August 2008 02:36 AM by astal ]
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Posted: 14 August 2008 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Lard and larder had never occurred to me either. An adoptive aunt of mine had a pantry too (though also a fridge, and hers was a very small ‘50s house) designed to keep stuff cold on tiled surfaces as she explained its function to me. Free Dictionary says:

pan·try (pntr)
n. pl. pan·tries
1. A small room or closet, usually off a kitchen, where food, tableware, linens, and similar items are stored.
2. A small room used for the preparation of cold foods.
(Middle English pantrie, from Old French paneterie, bread-closet, from panetier, pantry servant, from pan, bread, from Latin pnis; see p- in Indo-European roots.)

Fanny Craddock was an early British TV cook and there was a joke I remember about her involving a spoonerism: What is the difference between Fanny Craddock and a cross country run? One is a pant in the country......... Sorry, but there are similar puns in Hamlet and Marvell’s To His Coy Mistress!

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Posted: 15 August 2008 01:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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venomousbede - 14 August 2008 09:57 AM

Lard and larder had never occurred to me either.

Or me

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Posted: 16 August 2008 03:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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I’ve been away from this site for a few days and find my thread has serendipitously drifted to the topping of dripping, which I was thinking about recently. Our dripping container, a round aluminium, I think, metal bowl with straight sides, was usually next to the sink - no fridge in the fifties (I was skinny as a child and only became frighteningly obese after I stopped eating bread and dripping). We heated it up every few days. Germans have Griebenschmalz, which is lard with some sort of brown crunchy stuff in it - maybe this had the same origin? When I had a lot of goose fat last year, it did not keep well in the fridge and I wondered if I should have heated that up regularly too, although I don’t even know if the heating of dripping was necessary. Anyway, ours did not have several layers, because of the heating, but the bottom layer was brown, often with a jellified substratum.

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Posted: 18 August 2008 02:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Larder is where you store lard.
Cupboard is where you store cups.
Broom closet is where you store brooms.

What part of “larder” is surprising everyone?

[ Edited: 18 August 2008 02:21 AM by bela_okmix ]
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Posted: 18 August 2008 02:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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bela_okmix - 18 August 2008 02:18 AM

Larder is where you store lard.
Cupboard is where you store cups.
Broom closet is where you store brooms.

What part of “larder” is surprising everyone?

I don’t think people much store lard any more.  AHD only says ‘food’.  I think Eastponders might wonder about storing cups in a cupboard.

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Posted: 18 August 2008 11:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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bela_okmix - 18 August 2008 02:18 AM

Cupboard is where you store cups.
Broom closet is where you store brooms.

As a RightPondian, I feel I have to point out that I actually store brooms in a broom cupboard, which is of course utterly illogical in the light of the above.

We used to use ‘closet’ just like LeftPondians, which is etymologically much more sensible. I wonder why we stopped?

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Posted: 19 August 2008 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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bela_okmix - 18 August 2008 02:18 AM

Larder is where you store lard.

I put mine in the fridge actually.

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Posted: 19 August 2008 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Before we could afford a fridge, we kept lard in the larder, which we called a pantry*.  Where we also kept pans, even though pan** and pantry* don’t match, etymologically speaking.

OED:
*Anglo-Norman painterie, panetrie, pantere, panterie, pantrie, paneterie and Old French, Middle French paneterie storeroom for bread

**Cognate with Old Frisian panne, ponne, Middle Dutch panne (Dutch pan), Old Saxon panna (Middle Low German panne, German regional (Low German) pann, panne), Old High German phanna, pfanna (Middle High German phanne, pfanne, German Pfanne), further etymology uncertain; perhaps < classical Latin panna a kind of earthenware vessel (in a number of inscriptions from Germany and southern France), a kind of iron vessel (in an undated glossary), in post-classical Latin also kettle (12th cent. in a German source), dripping-pan (mid 16th cent. in a British source), although this is itself of uncertain origin (it is perhaps a variant of patina, patena (see PATEN n.)

[ Edited: 19 August 2008 02:07 PM by astal ]
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Posted: 09 March 2009 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Came across this post while just browsing. Not sure why someone hijacked it to the point the original query was ignored in favor of lard, larder, larding or whatever.

I live not far from several Amish families. They are in the valley adjacent to the city I live in, Ellimsport PA is the region I’m refering to they occupy. These are old order and not to be confused with the other various sects which are more modernized. Old order speak their language which is most often confused as german. It is a german derivative, but as a people seperated from their area of origin, has over the centuries been altered in various ways.

I bring this up because the original post, questioned the validity of the term Bot Boi, and if it was a case of the german language hijacking the term pot pie. First the Pennsylvania Dutch don’t speak german, it’s a hybrid of german. Secondly it is a completely different dish. While pot pie is for the most part a meat pie, and is very similar to a pie in general such as apple pie. Bot Boi is kind of a noodle soup, it consists of square noddles cooked with celery, onion, and carrot, and in my experience can consist of ham, chicken or beef. It is fairly thick but that is the result of the flour on the noddles and the ammount of noodles used. It contains probably twice the ammount of noodles you would normally have in chicken noodle soup. While pot pie, or meat pie, has a crust over the top, if it isn’t made in the form of a pie with crust on the sides and bottom. I just thought I’d trie to clear this up. I doubt most people in germany are familiar with the term Bot Boi, where most people in and around amish country would generally have an idea.

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Posted: 09 March 2009 11:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Boi is the Pennsylvania Dutch word for English pie.  The German p or pf > b in initial position seems to be an erratic feature of Pennsylvania Dutch.  Browsing through the Vocabulary of A Simple Grammar of Pennsylvania Dutch shows, e.g., Blaum for plum /Pflaume/, blendi for plenty, Bluug for plough /Pflug/, Breddicher for preacher /Prediger/, and browiere to try /probieren/.  The word listed for English pot pie is Batboi.  There are also some words where the German initial p or pf is p in Pennsylvania Dutch: paar /paar/, Paersching peach /Pfirisch/, Peif pipe /Pfiefe/ and Pulver powder /Pulver/.

Faldage

Has anyone responded in full* to Faldage’s post, which introduces the interesting speculation that bot boi and batboi may be either related or that one may have morphed into the other or been erroneously adopted for the other?  I think the points you have just raised in the last post have been made previously in this thread, but it’s no harm to have them summarized.  Yes, threads sometimes wander off topic, but most of us here would agree that in the most part that’s a good thing as so many more interesting topics are introduced by responding to an unrelated subject in a previous post.

*apart from Zirbelnuss

[ Edited: 09 March 2009 11:39 PM by ElizaD ]
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Posted: 24 October 2010 03:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Pennsylvania Dutch pot pie is not a pie, and doesn’t necessarily require a pot. It is simply a thin chicken broth with wide, flat noodles in it. The noodles are cooked in the broth. it is not baked. I ate some tonight.

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Posted: 25 October 2010 11:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Germans have Griebenschmalz, which is lard with some sort of brown crunchy stuff in it - maybe this had the same origin?

perhaps Griebenschmaltz is what you get when you render down the “fatty” bits trimmed off a piece of meat (which are mostly adipose and connective tissue), and don’t remove all the residual non-fat solids - that “brown crunchy stuff” which Zirbelnuss mentions. The best “brown crunchy stuff” is produced, in my opinion, when rendering down fatty tissue and skin from fowl (chicken, or less frequently nowadays, goose). This delicious, crunchy material is called in Yiddish gribbenes, and in Spanish chicharrones ("little crickets”, probably because of the crackling, chirping sound produced when any water present is driven off during rendering). In non-Jewish homes, chicharrones may also derive from the rendering of fatty pork bits.

The brown bottom layer in Zirbelnuss’ goose fat will contain dissolved and suspended solids from the meat, and any residual water, jellified by collagen and other proteins. These will naturally sink to the bottom when the melted fat is left to stand, fats being normally lighter than water.

To a passionate devotee of fatty and oily foods (words like “unctuous” and “oleaginous” are pure music to me), following this thread has been almost as satisfying as eating a good, greasy meal (wipes drooling mouth)........

welcome, cavethug, welcome, zone1. Sit down and have a gobbet, and pass the chicharrones.

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Posted: 26 October 2010 02:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Gotta say, I would think “lard” any time I heard “larder” though note that I did not encounter either term young.

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